Curse

Sirius-NZ · Feb 11, 2008, 09:45 AM // 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

I use Avatar of Balthazar just so I can learn more about the profession, im thinking of changing to another avatar though what would you suggest? Ive also captured a majority of the avatars....so yea ...just looking around

If you're playing PvE, Lyssa is probably the most straightforward to use and the most universally effective.

Basically you'll want to load up on quick-activating attacks - like Eremite's Attack and Mystic Sweep (you'll notice they have an activation time - this is shorter than the time between the swings of a Dervish's scythe so it makes it faster) and use them like interrupts; go especially for the casters, and try to whack as many of those quick attacks as possible in on them when they're casting a spell (the longer the duration the easier it is to hit). It'll do quite a lot of damage.

More information about effective Lyssa builds is available in this thread (note other builds e.g. Melandru are here also):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10244740
The PvE-only Lyssa build under section 8 is the one I'm talking about. It doesn't have any defensive skills, meaning you'll need to rely on your monks to help you out there, but the damage it deals out more than makes up for it.

Good luck with your quest.

M @ T · Feb 11, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

The only way I can think of that somebody can use AoB is by using Frenzy making you have a 33% IAS and 33% speed boost. Still the other avatars are better but that's the only way a Dervish can perhaps use AoB.. Then ofcourse you add Rush, Wild Blow blah blah.. Still AoG(buffed) and AoM is better tho.

Sirius-NZ · Feb 11, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Seriously, if they swapped the run speed for 33% (or even 25% would be enough) IAS, you could do stuff like:

AoB
Pious Haste
Crippling Victory
Wild Blow
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Something else (perhaps Rending Touch, Imbue Health or Victorious Sweep)
Res

and it'd actually be a respectable build for PvP. Needing no enchantments can be an advantage with some of those Dervish skills.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Feb 11, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

but will anet do that no

yum · Feb 11, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius-NZ

Seriously, if they swapped the run speed for 33% (or even 25% would be enough) IAS, you could do stuff like:

AoB
Pious Haste
Crippling Victory
Wild Blow
Pious Assault
Eremite's Attack
Something else (perhaps Rending Touch, Imbue Health or Victorious Sweep)
Res

and it'd actually be a respectable build for PvP. Needing no enchantments can be an advantage with some of those Dervish skills.

And you got an upgraded version of thumper. GJ. That's what this game needs.

moriz · Feb 11, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

you can only be as good as your skillbar will let you.

you got it backwards: your build is only as good as YOU are.

take for example, farin from DF and a noob player straight out of RA. give farin a mending wammo, give the other player a shock axe. even though the shock axe is a better build that the mending wammo, farin can still beat the shit out of the random player.

similarly, if i'm doing a gvg, and the only warrior player i have access to can only play a mending wammo, i'll let him play it. i CAN force him to play a shock axe, but he'll still play like a mending wammo (but without the mending).

of course, my examples are pretty extreme. but the point stands: YOU ultimately decide how well you perform on the battlefield. what you bring on your skillbar is a distant second in terms of importance.

now back to this thread:

avatar of melandru and lyssa are better than balthazar. that kinda goes without saying. however, there are players who play at their peak efficiency with avatar of balthazar, something that they cannot do with melandru and lyssa. by forcing them to play a melandru or lyssa will actually make them LESS effective, had we simply let them play their balthazar build.

each build plays different from others. each player plays the same builds different than any other player. the best build makers match the right players with the builds they are most comfortable with, and not force the players to play a certain build just because it is the most effective on paper.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 11, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

avatar of melandru and lyssa are better than balthazar. that kinda goes without saying. however, there are players who play at their peak efficiency with avatar of balthazar, something that they cannot do with melandru and lyssa. by forcing them to play a melandru or lyssa will actually make them LESS effective, had we simply let them play their balthazar build.

All very well and good, but if I'm going to fight a war, I'm still gonna give my soldiers assault rifles and snipers, even if they're more comfortable with water pistols.

They may not be able to use rifles very well, but it's still better than having them try to fight with water, and - better yet! - by being forced to use rifles, they may even learn to use them.

Balthazar is a water pistol, and I'd rather force players to use rifles hoping that they get better.

analogies are fun

Coloneh · Feb 11, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

All very well and good, but if I'm going to fight a war, I'm still gonna give my soldiers assault rifles and snipers, even if they're more comfortable with water pistols.

They may not be able to use rifles very well, but it's still better than having them try to fight with water, and - better yet! - by being forced to use rifles, they may even learn to use them.

Balthazar is a water pistol, and I'd rather force players to use rifles hoping that they get better.

analogies are fun

another good analogy from alex. im beginning to look forward to posts like this

Bobby2 · Feb 12, 2008, 01:03 AM // 01:03

OMG this reeks of constructive discussion

I largely agree with you Moriz, but yeah one can't deny the difference in quality between some skills. In a perfect world (game balance) you'd be 100% right but sadly...

moriz · Feb 12, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

i'd rather they use water guns. at least they don't run the risk of accidently shooting themselves. or each other. you'll never know, maybe i'll arm them with lemon juice instead of water, and they can blind their enemies with squirts to the eyes!

but anyways, the analogy between water guns and rifles is not particularly accurate when it comes to the avatar of balthazar discussion. a better analogy would be between a glock (balthazar) and a desert eagle (melandru/lyssa). one is easier to use but not as effective, the other is far more powerful but harder to handle.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 12, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i'd rather they use water guns. at least they don't run the risk of accidently shooting themselves. or each other. you'll never know, maybe i'll arm them with lemon juice instead of water, and they can blind their enemies with squirts to the eyes!

I'd agree if, say, this was debating FG or OoU on a MM (I've used that exact same argument before in support of FG

); or maybe some monk skill discussion - whereby, if the player in question (MM or healer, here) screws up, he will hurt his team bad... However, for AoB vs AoL/M/G/D - a dervish can't kill himself or his team by running another avatar that he's not used to, so I really don't buy it.

Quote:

one is easier to use but not as effective, the other is far more powerful but harder to handle.

I don't see what's so hard to handle about maintaining Mel, and pushing Wearying on recharge. The only real problem a bad player will have is that Mel won't let him have the energy he needs to maintain all his shit tanking Earth Prayer crap, which will force him to be a better player because he's no longer wasting time and energy on casting them.
Hopefully.

Sorry, moriz - I usually agree with you on shit, but... Being bad isn't an excuse to run Balth. Bad players run AoB because they see the buffs it gives and (wrongly) think that it's worth using, not because playing balth fits their playstyle (yeeah, I've tried AoB before... it changes nothing about how you handle your derv, imo)

moriz · Feb 12, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

eh, maybe it's because i pretty much /FAIL when it comes to playing melee, but i personally found avatar of balthazar much easier to play than the other avatars. it's a sort of "all in one, press-this-button-to-go-batshit-insane-and-get-away-with-it" kind of skill that just happens to make up my lack of skill at playing melee. i just don't get the same effect on melandru and lyssa for some odd reason, even though they should on paper.

Stormlord Alex · Feb 12, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Just for lulz, replace Balth with Pious Haste or Rush and keep that up.

... you'll realise that that's all AoB really does for you. Mel is... well... godmode - lol @ blindbots, cripshots, spikes, with Eviscirape spam; Grenth is lol @ eles, monks and Aegis chains; Lyssa is retard damage spam; and Dwayna is lol @ them times when mobs like filling up your monitor with purple arrows.
Balthy, bless 'im, is Rush/Pious, except elite.

Sirius-NZ · Feb 12, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

The +40 armor isn't completely irrelevant. It's not hard to counter, either, but it does stop you being a "squishie" to assassins or warriors.

It's just that I don't really think it's worth it.

blurmedia · Feb 12, 2008, 10:31 AM // 10:31

I saw [ugly] run a derv with AoB in a gvg against dR today. wow.........

~ Dan ~ · Feb 12, 2008, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by blurmedia

I saw [ugly] run a derv with AoB in a gvg against dR today. wow.........

Very hard to convince nublets it's a nublet skill when they see it on TV

Div · Feb 12, 2008, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Very hard to convince nublets it's a nublet skill when they see it on TV

It's one of those skills that are stronger for PvP than PvE, but has so many "buffs" that PvErs love to run. If you look at it, the speed boost is nearly completely useless in PvE, but very powerful in PvP. The holy damage is minimally useful in PvE outside of undead areas, but can be huge in PvP with players packing slashing shields and whatnot.

Seeing it in PvP will make bad players say "hey I saw it on TV it must be good then" only if they ran it in the first place. Otherwise, they'd just say "PvP builds have nothing to do with PvE builds" and continue to run their mending healing hands wammo instead of dragon slash warrior.

That said, in most cases lyssa and melandrus are still much better than balthazar, but it's undeniable that balthazar is a better PvP skill than PvE.

moko · Feb 12, 2008, 11:40 AM // 11:40

one of my guildies seemed to believe that AoB was the perfect avatar to run in hexbuilds (after the Pious Assault and VoD change)

now, that Grenth has been buffed, he pretty much changed his mind though. :P

Quote:

I saw [ugly] run a derv with AoB in a gvg against dR today. wow........

they also beat the living crap out of ei, with aob of course.

Red_Dragon56 · Feb 12, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

I think I said this earier in this topic. But AoB is pretty much (in pve) a "running around" skill. Having a large speed boost when you are just trying to get to a specific quest area is helpful, mixed with Eternal Aura and you have a permanent 33% extra movement speed.

Now, in the Nightfall campaign at least, it is useful because of Holy damage, which hurts a lot of things. Then the +40 armor which makes you less squishy.

It has uses in PvE (Pretty much frees up 2-3 other skill slots for recovery or other things, fairly easy to maintain, and can't be stripped).

Now in PvP.

AoM is still pretty overpowered. The 25 energy cost is nothing compared to the benefits. I wouldn't be suprised if this gets a Grenth nerf somtime.

AoB can be replaced by other skills, meaning you can bring mother tree out and still get the benefits (with maybe the exception of armor, but you don't need that with mother tree) The only benefit to having AoB is pretty much the benefit to having it in PvE, it saves skill slots and can't be stripped off. If you even call it a benefit.

Div · Feb 12, 2008, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

they also beat the living crap out of ei, with aob of course.

It doesn't help that smgz was specced into sword when he ran an evis bar. And only realized it ~12 minutes into the game, which by then ei lost their entire base minus the bodyguard.

AoB > unspecced warrior? I think so